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  04/23/08

  Added by:
  superma1965
  Ledyard, CT

  Just because one does not look disabled does not mean one is not. I have MS, a 21 month old, and graves disease. I have a hanging, but I do not use it all the time. The days I feel good I do not use it, the days I feel like crap I use it. I am sick and tired of being told that I have no right to park in the handicaped spot. I have been told that if I can care for a child I am not handicaped, I have been told being fat is not a handicaped (yes I am about 56 lbs over weight). I have had people park behind my car, call me and my children names. On the days the MS is flaring up I do have a limp but I still get accosted.
  We should be looking more at those that park in the spots that DO NOT have the stickers and stop ganging up on those that LEAGALLY have the stickers.
  
  I work a full time job also, with the disabled and I do get frustrated when I can not find a spot to park the van but I do not pass judgement when I see someone that looks able bodied park in handicaped if the have a legal sticker/license plate or hanging tag.

Comments:

• 

  08/11/08

  Added by:
  threefromil750
  St. Charles, IL

  Superma, I feel for you, you have quite a load. To sum it up, there are many jerks in the world. Hopefully you didn't wade through all the blah blah on this page, second guessing you, telling you what to do. You have a life, no need to respond to all the garbage.
  
  Personally, if I got that much lip, I would talk to a lawyer and see if there was anything you could do with having someone videotape it all going down. If they don't know where you work, I would suggest checking out their license plates and responding by sticking the word 'IDIOT' on a post it for their cars. Maybe some fun for your husband. Or report them on the site for parking in handicapped parking. Childish, but enjoyable.

• 

  05/05/08

  Added by:
  Roger Russell, Ph.D.
  Claremont, CA

  I don't know how my comment below got posted twice...

• 

  05/05/08

  Added by:
  Roger Russell, Ph.D.
  Claremont, CA

  milomylovinsd said, "Those that use the handicap spots are the ones to harass those with invisable disablities. I like how someone posts I'm not going to pass judgement in one sentence then does the next nice. So its ok for someone disable to park unless you need the spot then its not ok - gotcha ! …If a person who has a handicapped placard, or license plate, can still park in a standard parking space, exit his, or her vehicle, and go into the store, restaurant, whatever, then the handicapped parking space is not a necessity. It may be highly desirable, but it is NOT a necessity. !! I can't belive someone that is handicap would even say that to another. Good luck with that I hope you never and I mean NEVER find out what something like MS or FMS does. Just because they can walk, you have NO IDEA what it is like to them. - oh but you dont pass judgement.. Right ? You just did..."
  
  What? Ummm...this is very unclear. You don't seem to be following the points being made, so I'll try to clarify, though I'm uncertain whether that will work, because you failed to follow what had been clearly stated before. On top of which, you appear either uninformed, or unwilling to understand the differences between levels of mobility-impairment.
  
  First, I made no judgments. You don’t appear to know what a judgment is. I stated some facts. Like this:
  
  If (I repeat IF) a person who has a handicapped placard, or license plate, can still park in a standard parking space, exit his, or her vehicle, and go into the store, restaurant, whatever, then the handicapped parking space is not a necessity. It may be highly desirable, but it is NOT a necessity. Instead, it is a much valued convenience. This is not an opinion. This is not a judgment. This is a fact. Nothing more. Nothing less.
  
  Now, this ONLY applies if the person can use a standard parking space if and when all handicapped spaces are taken.
  
  On the other hand, there are people who CANNOT park in a standard space exit their vehicles, and go into the store, restaurant, whatever, in which case the handicapped parking space is much more than a convenience--it's a necessity. This, too, is not an opinion. This is not a judgment. This is a fact. Nothing more. Nothing less.
  
  The nature of the disability has no bearing. What does have a bearing is how much mobility-impairment the disability produces. The more impairment (the less mobile the person is), the more likely the person will need to use a wheelchair, or a walker, or crutches, or other mobility assistive devices, all of which REQUIRE the wide handicapped parking spaces. People in that situation, CANNOT park in a standard space and exit their vehicles, when all the handicapped spaces are taken. This, too, is not an opinion. This is not a judgment. This is a fact. Nothing more. Nothing less.
  
  So...when it comes to MS, or a host of other non-visible disabilities, they only require handicapped parking when they've advanced to the point that they result in a mobility-impairment requiring those previously named assistive devices. Up until that time, handicapped parking is highly desirable and very convenient. BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY. And, as you ought to know, by that time and at that point, THEY ARE NO LONGER NON-VISIBLE DISABILITIES.
  
  As for harassing, if you'd read more carefully, you would have seen that the harassment mentioned here was not necessarily by other people with disabilities.
  
  As for finding out “what something like MS or FMS does. Just because they can walk, you have NO IDEA what it is like to them. - oh but you dont pass judgement.. Right ? You just did..." You have no information about what various disabilities I have, so that’s more than slightly ridiculous to say. And, again, no I don’t pass judgment. I simply point out the facts. You may not like them, but mistakenly calling them “judgments” won’t make the facts go away.

• 

  05/05/08

  Added by:
  Roger Russell, Ph.D.
  Claremont, CA

  milomylovinsd said, "Those that use the handicap spots are the ones to harass those with invisable disablities. I like how someone posts I'm not going to pass judgement in one sentence then does the next nice. So its ok for someone disable to park unless you need the spot then its not ok - gotcha ! …If a person who has a handicapped placard, or license plate, can still park in a standard parking space, exit his, or her vehicle, and go into the store, restaurant, whatever, then the handicapped parking space is not a necessity. It may be highly desirable, but it is NOT a necessity. !! I can't belive someone that is handicap would even say that to another. Good luck with that I hope you never and I mean NEVER find out what something like MS or FMS does. Just because they can walk, you have NO IDEA what it is like to them. - oh but you dont pass judgement.. Right ? You just did..."
  
  What? Ummm...this is very unclear. You don't seem to be following the points being made, so I'll try to clarify, though I'm uncertain whether that will work, because you failed to follow what had been clearly stated before. On top of which, you appear either uninformed, or unwilling to understand the differences between levels of mobility-impairment.
  
  First, I made no judgments. You don’t appear to know what a judgment is. I stated some facts. Like this:
  
  If (I repeat IF) a person who has a handicapped placard, or license plate, can still park in a standard parking space, exit his, or her vehicle, and go into the store, restaurant, whatever, then the handicapped parking space is not a necessity. It may be highly desirable, but it is NOT a necessity. Instead, it is a much valued convenience. This is not an opinion. This is not a judgment. This is a fact. Nothing more. Nothing less.
  
  Now, this ONLY applies if the person can use a standard parking space if and when all handicapped spaces are taken.
  
  On the other hand, there are people who CANNOT park in a standard space exit their vehicles, and go into the store, restaurant, whatever, in which case the handicapped parking space is much more than a convenience--it's a necessity. This, too, is not an opinion. This is not a judgment. This is a fact. Nothing more. Nothing less.
  
  The nature of the disability has no bearing. What does have a bearing is how much mobility-impairment the disability produces. The more impairment (the less mobile the person is), the more likely the person will need to use a wheelchair, or a walker, or crutches, or other mobility assistive devices, all of which REQUIRE the wide handicapped parking spaces. People in that situation, CANNOT park in a standard space and exit their vehicles, when all the handicapped spaces are taken. This, too, is not an opinion. This is not a judgment. This is a fact. Nothing more. Nothing less.
  
  So...when it comes to MS, or a host of other non-visible disabilities, they only require handicapped parking when they've advanced to the point that they result in a mobility-impairment requiring those previously named assistive devices. Up until that time, handicapped parking is highly desirable and very convenient. BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY. And, as you ought to know, by that time and at that point, THEY ARE NO LONGER NON-VISIBLE DISABILITIES.
  
  As for harassing, if you'd read more carefully, you would have seen that the harassment mentioned here was not necessarily by other people with disabilities.
  
  As for finding out “what something like MS or FMS does. Just because they can walk, you have NO IDEA what it is like to them. - oh but you dont pass judgement.. Right ? You just did..." You have no information about what various disabilities I have, so that’s more than slightly ridiculous to say. And, again, no I don’t pass judgment. I simply point out the facts. You may not like them, but mistakenly calling them “judgments” won’t make the facts go away.

• 05/02/08

  Added by:
  milomylovinsd
  corona, CA

  Those that use the handicap spots are the ones to harass those with invisable disablities. I like how someone posts I'm not going to pass judgement in one sentence then does the next nice. So its ok for someone disable to park unless you need the spot then its not ok - gotcha ! Superma1965 if you ever need to chat talk to me.
  And I am sorry but for someone with FMS or MS handicap parking is NOT a convenience !! I can't belive someone that is handicap would even say that to another. Good luck with that I hope you never and I mean NEVER find out what something like MS or FMS does. Just because they can walk, you have NO IDEA what it is like to them. - oh but you dont pass judgement.. Right ? You just did...

• 

  04/28/08

  Added by:
  Roger Russell, Ph.D.
  Claremont, CA

  Superma1965 said, “Yes, I have had to circle the lot. But I'm not going to sit there and look and examine all those using the spot.”
  
  Are you assuming, based on what I wrote, that I sit there, looking and examining all using the spot? If you are, that’s truly strange and a rather long leap from what I wrote.
  
  I simply said that the only time I’m inclined toward judgment is when I find the spaces all taken and observe one, or more occupied by someone without an apparent mobility impairment. Doing that does not require sitting there, looking, and examining. It’s simply a matter of seeing someone come out, while I’m circling waiting for spot to open, who has no apparent mobility impairment who gets into a car in a handicapped space and drives off. Simple as that.
  
  Superma1965 said, “I do not pass judgment that is what I am trying to say. Is there abuse in the system well yes (like with anything). But when I leave the mall and my car has a nasty gram on it 'YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO HANDICAPPED FRAUD. ORG" I tend to get my dander up. In the last week (since someone wrote our local paper with this web site) I have had 3 notes (the ms is flaring up), and been sworn at 2 at the local super market.”
  
  Abusive and hostile confrontation is totally out of order, and I support your response when treated that way. Further, this site does not support such behavior. In fact, it counsels to avoid direct confrontation.
  
  But when it comes to having a post-it on your car, while no one can tell you how to respond, your idea that the factual statement that you have been reported is nasty, is clearly in the eyes of the beholder—in this case, you. There’s nothing explicitly nasty about that factual statement. Someone saw you and didn’t see a mobility impairment requiring handicapped parking, so they reported you. And surely you realize that if there is appropriate documentation supporting your parking in handicapped spaces, nothing will happen.
  
  There is an old psychological truism that states that people don’t have to wear any shoes that don’t fit. So, for example, if you are female and thin, anyone walking up to you and berating you for being a fat man will not have the same degree of impact as it would if someone berated you for being a skinny woman—the former comes nowhere close to fitting, while the latter might fit. It is annoying at times to be mis-identified and then berated, but it’s not something to take to heart. On the other hand, if the shoe does fit, people tend to be more than slightly injured by such berating. Either that, or very thin-skinned.
  
  I can’t say that either apply to you, but you appear more concerned about your personal welfare than that of the entire population of those who need handicapped parking.
  
  Superma1965 said, “I work a full time job also, with the disabled and I do get frustrated when I can not find a spot to park the van but I do not pass judgement when I see someone that looks able bodied park in handicaped if the have a legal sticker/license plate or hanging,”
  
  No one says you have to make a judgment. You may, however, choose to report an observation and let those qualified to make the judgment do so. Personally, I wish you would do that, because I’m concerned with the greater good for all who need handicapped parking. But, of course, the decision is up to you.

• 

  04/28/08

  Added by:
  Roger Russell, Ph.D.
  Claremont, CA

  dave2780 said, “So you only pass judgement when there is no handicapped space available? So it seems it's a matter of your convenience.”
  
  I assume, since you mention something I wrote, your above comment is addressed to me, so I’ll respond.
  
  No. It is not a matter of my convenience. As I clearly stated, it is a matter of my necessity. I can ONLY park in handicapped spaces to exit my vehicle. That makes them far more than convenient for me. It makes them necessary. While I must have handicapped parking, there are those with mobility impairments who actually can park elsewhere and still exit their vehicles when all the handicapped parking spaces are taken. For them, handicapped parking may be highly desirable and convenient, but it’s not an absolute necessity. I’m at a loss to understand why this eluded you.
  
  I do not oppose parking in handicapped spaces by those who have mobility impairments but can park elsewhere. What I do oppose is fraudulent parkers hiding in their midst.
  
  Further, I don’t actually pass judgment. I just make an observation. The only reason I used the word “judgment” was to be consistent with the language used in the post to which I was responding.
  
  You may not have thought of this, but there is a very substantial difference between an observation and a judgment. The latter involves arriving at an evaluative inference based on the former. So, for example, one might say, “I see a woman.” That’s an observation. But one might also say, “I see a smart woman correctly filling out a cross-word puzzle,” and once “smart” is added, an evaluative inference based on the woman’s actions enters the picture. Similarly one can say, “I see a person getting out of a car in a handicapped parking space who has no mobility impairment that is visible to me.” That’s an observation. But one might also say, “I see a person who’s faking a disability,” and that would be a judgment.
  
  While I don’t make judgments, we may still ask whether that happens. In other words, do people make erroneous judgments of that sort about folks in handicapped parking spaces? Of course. And while I oppose such judgments, I recognize that our task is to eliminate the judgments while retaining the observations. We take those observations, forward them to the appropriate authorities (e.g., a Department of Motor Vehicles) and let them make the judgments. Only they have the necessary information to do so. Only they can determine whether a lost, or stolen placard is being used, or one from a deceased person. So we report, and let them do their job. If the DMV finds no basis for fraud, nothing happens.
  
  I said, "The issue is observing someone who has no apparent mobility impairment parking in a site."
  
  dave2780 said, “When I got my handicapped plates nowhere did it mention that the mobility impairment had to be apparent to ANYONE other than my physician.”
  
  I said nothing about it being apparent to your physician either. Why? Because that’s irrelevant.
  
  What my prior post said was that a person has to have a disability that results in a mobility impairment, which then requires handicapped parking. That’s all. A disability in and of itself, whether visible, or not, does not automatically qualify a person for handicapped parking. It depends on whether the disability creates a mobility impairment that will benefit from handicapped parking. And all your physician does is verify the medical presence of a disability that leads to a mobility impairment, requiring handicapped parking. Period.
  
  If you have not read the federal guidelines that most states follow, now would be a good time. They are readily available online and have actually been posted in this blog more than once. Do a Google search, or look several pages down on the blog. After you’ve read them, you’ll be in a position to engage in an informed discussion about the issues presented here.
  
  What you will find when you read them is that they specify not just a disability but a level of disability that results in mobility impairment. And if you read closely and explore the levels of disability stated, you will see that in the majority of instances, the mobility impairment should be visible to anyone, not just a physician.
  
  Again, all the physician does is verify the presence of the medical condition creating the mobility impairment. And if you think about it, you can see that such verification is necessary to prevent people from simply walking into a DMV with a fake limp and asking for a handicapped parking placard.
  
  dave2780 said, “You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder. You are not the only one that has a true need for a parking spot.”
  
  Well, I guess if that’s what you think, there’s no point in addressing a clear judgment on your part that is, as it happens, quite inaccurate. Were I to judge you, based on your statements, I would say you are highly defensive, suggesting that you in fact know that you, and others, capitalize on handicapped parking by using a marginal medical condition to gain a convenience. But I know that I have insufficient information to make that judgment, and, in fact, I therefore don’t make it. I only mention it, to point out how easily you can leap to incorrect judgments.
  
  Which, of course, is why I disapprove of judgments while supporting simple observations. In other words, I agree with all who post here asking for people not to make judgments. But I don’t agree that they shouldn’t report their observations.

• 

  04/26/08

  Added by:
  superma1965
  Ledyard, CT

  Yes, I have had to circle the lot. But I'm not going to sit there and look and examine all those using the spot.
  
  I do not pass judgment that is what I am trying to say. Is there abuse in the system well yes (like with anything). But when I leave the mall and my car has a nasty gram on it 'YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO HANDICAPPED FRAUD. ORG" I tend to get my dander up. In the last week (since someone wrote our local paper with this web site) I have had 3 notes (the ms is flaring up), and been sworn at 2 at the local super market.

• 

  04/24/08

  Added by:
  dave2780
  Odessa, TX

  Superma1965 said, "I work a full time job also, with the disabled and I do get frustrated when I can not find a spot to park the van but I do not pass judgement when I see someone that looks able bodied park in handicaped if the have a legal sticker/license plate or hanging tag"
  
  I don't either, EXCEPT when there's no handicapped space available, and I have to circle the lot waiting for one to open up, or go home. Does that happen to you? Or are you one of those blessed with the ability to use a standard site when all the handicapped ones are occupied? Which of course would mean handicapped parking is a highly desirable convenience for you, but not truly a necessity.
  
  So you only pass judgement when there is no handicapped space available? So it seems it's a matter of your convenience.
  
  "The issue is observing someone who has no apparent mobility impairment parking in a site."
  
  When I got my handicapped plates nowhere did it mention that the mobility impairment had to be apparent to ANYONE other than my physician.
  
  You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder. You are not the only one that has a true need for a parking spot.

• 

  04/23/08

  Added by:
  Roger Russell, Ph.D.
  Claremont, CA

  Superma1965 said, "Just because one does not look disabled does not mean one is not."
  
  Do you truly think people who frequent this site don't know this? If so, why? And you do understand that handicapped parking is not provided on the basis of a disability (read the federal guidelines that most states follow--they are online) but on the basis of a mobility impairment, don't you? Disability alone does not qualify.
  
  Superma1965 said, "I work a full time job also, with the disabled and I do get frustrated when I can not find a spot to park the van but I do not pass judgement when I see someone that looks able bodied park in handicaped if the have a legal sticker/license plate or hanging tag"
  
  I don't either, EXCEPT when there's no handicapped space available, and I have to circle the lot waiting for one to open up, or go home. Does that happen to you? Or are you one of those blessed with the ability to use a standard site when all the handicapped ones are occupied? Which of course would mean handicapped parking is a highly desirable convenience for you, but not truly a necessity.
  
  As for passing judgment, that's not the issue. The issue is observing someone who has no apparent mobility impairment parking in a site. Surely you know that there is a high frequency of fraudulent use by people who have borrowed, stolen placards, or are using placards of deceased people. If you don't know, read Nancy's post about fraudulent parkers.
  
  As for hostile confrontation, this site opposes that in all cases.

• 

  04/23/08

  Added by:
  superma1965
  Ledyard, CT

  Should say hanging tag :(

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